14 May, 2012
Sky News AM Agenda
With Kieran Gilbert and Nick Champion MP
14 May 2012
8:45am
E & OE
Subjects: Code of Ethics, National Disability Insurance Scheme
KIERAN GILBERT:
Joining me now from Melbourne, Liberal frontbencher Senator Mitch Fifield and from Adelaide, Labor MP Nick Champion. Gentleman good morning.
The independents are calling for a code of conduct for MPs. Nick, the Government looked at this issue six months ago when the Privileges Committee released a proposal and it didn’t go anywhere. Now in the wake of the Thomson matter, it’s been dusted off. It obviously hasn’t generated much interest in the past. Do you think that this scandal will force some action on this front?
NICK CHAMPION:
Well Kieran I’m not sure if that’s quite right. At the moment it’s being looked at by some Senate committee, the code of conduct idea. Presumably they’re putting their minds to it. There has been quite a bit of discussion about this within the Parliament and quite obviously it’s under investigation by the Senate committees at the moment and I guess people will make their judgements from that. But look ‘codes of conducts’ sound very good I think, personally I doubt it will have the desired effect the public wants because of the sort of hyper-partisanship that we have in the Parliament at the moment. Invariably these things don’t get used as some independent arbitration of a person’s behaviour but rather in a political way, a partisan way, and I think that’s one of the flaws with them. But let’s let the Senate have a look at it, no doubt at some point they’ll come back to the Parliament with some recommendations.
KIERAN GILBERT:
Senator Fifield what’s your instinct on this, do you think that there’s room for a toughening of the governance of MPs?
MITCH FIFIELD:
Well Kieran it’s not because of the absence of a code of conduct that certain members of parliament find themselves in a difficult situation. It’s because of the decisions that they themselves have taken. You can’t legislate for ethical behaviour anymore than you can legislate for competence. The ultimate sanction against members of parliament is obviously at the ballot box. Where you have members of parliament who belong to political parties there is the option for preselectors to deselect them. And there’s also the opportunity for a bit of prime ministerial leadership in the situation we find ourselves in at the moment. The Prime Minister should in the case of Mr Thomson, not be accepting his vote in the Parliament. We also find ourselves looking at the independents talking about a code of conduct because they’re looking for every mechanism possible to avoid actually taking responsibility for the fact that they’re propping up this government.
KIERAN GILBERT:
So you don’t support the idea of a code of conduct then?
MITCH FIFIELD:
I don’t think it’s a magic solution. The independents are talking about it because they don’t want to accept their responsibility for the fact that they’re propping up the government. The Prime Minister wants to talk about a code of conduct because she doesn’t want to accept her responsibility that there actually is something that she can do in the current situation and that is to agree to not accept Mr Thomson’s vote. The ultimate sanction all of us face is at the ballot box. But between elections there is a role for prime ministerial leadership and this Prime Minister isn’t providing it.
KIERAN GILBERT:
Tony Windsor spoke to my colleague Peter van Onselen yesterday on the Australian Agenda program. I just want to play a little bit of that for you now.
TONY WINDSOR (file footage):
Tony Abbott or others in the Parliament or the general public want a real change in terms of how they assess those things. Well Rob Oakeshott and I are looking at some of that and that might come into the Parliament.
KIERAN GILBERT:
It’s a challenge for Tony Windsor isn’t it Nick Champion, and Rob Oakeshott, because both of them have been very strong on the need to improve parliamentary standards. That was part of the agreement with the Government. But now they’re being forced to almost defend the due process rights of an embattled MP in the face of this scandal. So it is a real balancing act difficulty for those independents.
NICK CHAMPION:
Well these are always difficult issues for the community and the Parliament to assess and obviously we’ve got to have pretty cold and sober and rational calculations about them. And I think the important thing is we keep cool heads. I mean what Mitch was talking about before is turning the idea of parliament on its head. That is, at the moment we have a system where people get elected for three years, voters make their judgements about people, elect them for a set period of time and those people represent them. What Mitch is talking about is a whole electorate basically being cast into the darkness in terms of representation, and I don’t think that’s really a healthy thing for democracy. I think the ultimate arbiter of these things is always voters and they’re the people that make judgements every three years. It’s been a tried and true formula not just in Australia, which is I think the fourth oldest democracy in the world, but in the United Kingdom. I think that we should just you know, take a step back from the current situation and have a think about some of the principles that have underwritten our democracy for a hundred years, and it’s served us well. I think the sort of hyper-partisanship that surrounds this doesn’t actually help the matter. We’ve got to remember that Craig Thomson has not been charged with anything.
KIERAN GILBERT:
Well let’s look at Mr Thomson’s interview at the weekend; he was on the Nine Network’s Today Show on Saturday. There’s been a lot of reaction to it since; questions asked, predictably I suppose. His former colleague at the union National Secretary Kathy Jackson has rejected the claims made from Mr Thomson of a set up. She was on the Sunrise program this morning.
KATHY JACKSON (file footage):
Well the evidence we have is the documentary evidence that Fair Work Australia have before them the credit card receipts, the invoices etc etc. So it flies in the face of the documentary evidence that we’ve all seen.
KIERAN GILBERT:
Others have said they don’t believe him flat out, like Joe Hockey. What did you think of the interview Nick Champion?
NICK CHAMPION:
Well it doesn’t really matter what I thought. If I wanted to be a judge or a defence attorney or a prosecutor I would have gone into the law Kieran. There’s always a chance I might be called before a jury but that hasn’t happened yet either. And I just encourage people to let due process take its course. That’s the appropriate thing to do in these circumstances, and I just urge everybody to do it. Simply what we all think about the matter is irrelevant in a way
KIERAN GILBERT:
Sure, let’s put that to Senator Fifield. Your direct response to that
MITCH FIFIELD:
What Craig Thomson said is interesting. It was very curious. But what I’m interested in is the Fair Work Australia report. That is definitive. Even if you put to one side whether union funds were spent on certain inappropriate recreational activities, there are still a whole range of things which Mr Thomson himself has actually admitted to, such as withdrawing money from an ATM from a credit card at will for personal expenses. Mr Thomson has admitted that he did that. That in itself should be sufficient for the Prime Minister to say look, we don’t feel comfortable accepting the vote of this person. We’re not talking about pre-judging any criminal matters but there are matters of judgement and behaviour which Mr Thomson has already admitted to which should be sufficient for the Prime Minister to act.
KIERAN GILBERT:
Senator Fifield what did you think of the move by Bill Shorten yesterday and his wife Chloe, front page of some of the Sunday papers, a pre-emptive strike against some rumours that have been doing the rounds. Is that a sign that politics is just getting too dirty at the moment?
MITCH FIFIELD:
It’s a sign that Bill Shorten and his wife were very concerned about rumours that were in circulation. When you work in Parliament House you hear all sorts of rumours, you hear all sorts of things around the traps. I think it’s important to not give those any credence. Families of members of parliament should be out of bounds. And unfounded rumours about individual members of parliament have no place. We should condemn them and I hope that Mr Shorten and his wife aren’t subject to any further rumours, as I hope that no member of parliament is subject to unfounded rumours.
KIERAN GILBERT:
Nick Champion I guess you wouldn’t have much disagreement with Mitch on that.
NICK CHAMPION:
No look one of the unfortunate costs of public life I think is that you’re always subject to lurid rumours of one description or another. You know, needless to say they’re all made up and most of them are complete bullshit but occasionally politicians have to come out in the press and deny them. And it’s a sad fact of public life that they have to do so.
KIERAN GILBERT:
A couple of other issues to finish. Kroger, Costello, it was extraordinary on Friday Mitch Fifield. You’re close to Peter Costello; in fact you got the number one place on the Senate ticket that saw Helen Kroger move to the third spot. That seems to be the catalyst for the extraordinary attack by Michael Kroger against his former best friend. One of them has to be lying in this. Who’s at fault and who’s lying in this case?
MITCH FIFIELD:
Kieran I think enough has been said about the events of last week. I issued a statement on Friday where I said that I thought the attack on Peter Costello was very disappointing. As Liberals, we should be in the business of honouring the icons of our Party and defending their legacy. I for one don’t intend to say anything further on the matter.
KIERAN GILBERT:
But obviously one said he was making a comeback, the other said that that’s not true someone’s lying in this. Who is it?
MITCH FIFIELD:
Peter Costello has never indicated to me a desire to make a political comeback.
KIERAN GILBERT:
Alright let’s move on to the National Disability Insurance Scheme, something of major significance to many Australians. We should give this some good coverage this morning. Senator Fifield the Prime Minister has made the valid point, I think, this morning that the Government has stumped up $1 billion for the trials next year and yet the states are baulking at that. If the Government’s willing to put the lion’s share into the trials, surely others should come to the table with goodwill on this issue?
MITCH FIFIELD:
Kieran the Government is flying blind. Penny Wong conceded at the weekend that the Government don’t know how they’re going to fund the NDIS. They don’t know how they’re going to fully deliver it. The reason that they don’t know is that at no stage has the Commonwealth sat down with the states and territories to discuss funding, or to discuss governance arrangements. For the best part of twelve months the states have been saying to the Commonwealth at COAG meetings and at ministerial council meetings, please can we discuss funding sources and funding apportionment. The Commonwealth has at every occasion refused to put those matters on the agenda.
KIERAN GILBERT:
The main point is the money. They’re stumping up $1 billion in the Budget, it’s the majority of the funds needed, that’s got to bring a bit of goodwill surely?
MITCH FIFIELD:
The Government has put some money towards an NDIS in the Budget and that’s a good thing, but the Government have only put a quarter of the money that the Productivity Commission recommends should be spent over the next four years. The Commonwealth can not answer the question as to whether they think the states should fund the balance of that. The Commonwealth haven’t had discussions with the states. The states are very keen to sit down and work cooperatively with the Commonwealth but they’ve been denied that opportunity. Now Kieran the NDIS is a policy which has an unusual degree of cross-party support. The disabilities portfolio is where I have, and Tony Abbott has, brought a non-partisan approach. In fact Tony Abbott has written to the Prime Minister it’s a critical point Kieran offering to support the establishment of a parliamentary committee chaired by the front benchers of both sides, to put this issue above politics.
KIERAN GILBERT:
Nick quickly your thoughts on this issue. I’m sorry we’re almost out of time Nick, but your thoughts.
NICK CHAMPION:
Well we’ve put $1 billion in and what we face now is a bunch of cheap state treasurers who are trying to evade their responsibilities under the constitution to look after disability services. And I think it’s a disgrace. I think it’s about time these state Liberal treasurers stop playing politics with this issue and start actually putting a bit of goodwill on the table, a bit of funding on the table for this important sector.
KIERAN GILBERT:
Gentlemen thanks a lot for that. Senator Fifield, Nick Campion, good to see you both.